Wagner James Au / New World Notes

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How To Create a Reddit-Style Upvote/Downvote Karma System for Virtual Worlds That Can’t Be Abused (Too Much)

SL virtual world reddit karma

Writing about Second Life-based drama last week, many readers didn't like my suggestion that a Reddit-like upvote/downvote-driven Karma system would work relatively well to improve the user community. Sample:

The karma system would literally be used as a tool to create an even more toxic locale on any type of forums, Reddit or non-Reddit and would be akin to the old IGN Vault Boards as there would be Nazi Moderators and their favorites; as well as those who would get banned from there just because they said one thing wrong or didn't kiss anyone's ass…

The hive-mind would dominate a Reddit-like karma system, as far as governance goes… Imagine, how banal events such as "crappy lil club drama" would play out if there were a Reddit-like karma system. You would see everyday disputes devolve into disciplinary action.

And maybe that's all true, but let's start with a salient point:

Reddit's karma system works. Yes it's often abused (as is any social system), but it remains utterly instrumental to making Reddit one of the most popular sites on the Internet.

The other point: There are relatively simple ways to minimize abuse of a karma system while rewarding great content and users and encouraging them to keep coming back to the world.

Here's how:

  • Karma points should be anonymously bestowed: That way, you don't know who gave you a positive or negative karma point, which would only inspire drama — or about as bad, create an obligation to reciprocate.
  • Karma points should be registered by system after a random time delay/cooldown period: This will also mask who gave karma points to whom. (An 8-12 hour delay is probably sufficient.)
  • The ability to bestow karma should be limited based on account age and rate of user activity: Cap the number of karma points any one user can give out per month, based on the age of their user account, and how often they log in. New/low activity users have very little karma to bestow; active veterans, quite a lot. 
  • Only very high karma users can downvote other users. This insures that downvotes are reserved only to established, proven, and active users.
  • Karma should be magical, not numerical: Distinguishing it from Reddit’s number-based karma, virtual world karma should be immersive and part of the experience — symbolized by, for example, special colors on an avatar’s nametag, or even unique sound effects, when a high karma user appears on the scene. (VRChat has a color/shape-coded karma badge system for well-optimized avatars.)
  • Keep the karma algorithm secret and frequently tweaked: This is probably the most important function of a good karma system — to prevent it from being gamed, users should never precisely know how or when points are given or taken away. And like any other MMO game system, it should be quietly altered on a regular basis, based on user analytics.

This is an improved version of the karmic system I proposed back in 2012, which provoked some pushback from SL users. But since then, virtual worlds like ROBLOX and VRChat with their karma/upvote systems have become massive, while SL has remained stagnant. So while we don't know if a karmic system would help an aging virtual world like Second Life, we know not having one definitely doesn't.

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17 responses to “How To Create a Reddit-Style Upvote/Downvote Karma System for Virtual Worlds That Can’t Be Abused (Too Much)”

  1. Nodoka Hanamura Avatar
    Nodoka Hanamura

    My question is, what benefits would this have? I can see it being used as a social credit score, and be it on SL or RL, I want no such thing.
    As someone who is guilty of being kinda-sorta addicted to the feeling of upvotes and some shit (as are many people, thanks a lot Dopamine.), It also could breed egotistical mentalities, thinking one higher than others and the sort. Sure, we already have this quasi-hierarchy in SL with the Proles followed by the Creators and Community Leaders, followed by the Social Media darlings and last but not least the Lindens themselves.
    I get wanting to modernize Second Life. But following everything VRChat does will not get us anywhere but farther away from what Agni was born to be. Honestly, me and my friend Sarrah were discussing this recently, and an overhaul to integrated social features is long over due and would have much more value than a overrated Karma system that would probably have more negative social impacts, in either of its’ forms you’ve proposed. MySL is a joke, and makes community alternatives like Avatarbook look like they were programmed by people with more money and man-hours at their disposal when it was probably just one guy with a WordPress or other kind of social media platform template they found while installing random shit on cPanel like any newbie sysadmin. (Hey, you can’t say we all didn’t do it at least once)
    MySL is horrendeous underused because it lacks features that SL NEEDS and feels less like a social media platform for SL users to communicate, and more like a fucking afterthought. IMing users in world from the web browser from MySL would be useful, another good feature would be better integration with events. a more up to date interface, a ‘family’ system for those interested in that stuff, being able to share more favorite places than what is in your Picks (which is already a clusterfuck in its’ own right), providing SL Avatar information such as Gender, Sexuality, RL Nationality/Time Zone, Trending Locations and showing public posts about those locations – better integration of Groups (Which need another fucking overhaul all on their own) and god knows what else my almost awake brain can’t think of.
    Linden Lab has been doing a good job taking care of old demons lurking in the closet as of late, but the drapes still look like they’re 50 years old and been eaten at by moths. Although not as high a priority as the mobile viewer, I feel that a communications overhaul, both in clientside/Webside and serverside (the latter for a whole fuckton of reasons relating to stability and reliability, especially as of late) is LONG – THE FUCK – OVERDUE.
    If anyone from Linden Lab, even a lackey sees this – point this in the direction of Ebbe or some higher up because fuck my ass and call me Miku Hatsune, something has to be done about MySL and general communications (outside of Local chat).

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  2. Alicia Avatar
    Alicia

    I knew I was going to have to tear this one down.
    I might as well start with the first bullet point:
    “Karma points should be anonymously bestowed: That way, you don’t know who gave you a positive or negative karma point, which would only inspire drama — or about as bad, create an obligation to reciprocate.” – This first point here has the potential to make people walk on eggshells at all times. It’s based on a 50/50 chance that you get either a positive or a negative point by either telling it like it is, kissing ass, or being a complete prick.
    “Karma points should be registered by system after a random time delay/cooldown period: This will also mask who gave karma points to whom. (An 8-12 hour delay is probably sufficient.)” – This one depends heavily upon the servers to work as they should. If the servers are lagging, or are being attacked by any potential DDoS or server hardware failure, then then point won’t register.
    “The ability to bestow karma should be limited based on account age and rate of user activity: Cap the number of karma points any one user can give out per month, based on the age of their user account, and how often they log in. New/low activity users have very little karma to bestow; active veterans, quite a lot.” – So, basically… this is an elitist tool meant to benefit those who use it as if it were social media itself. Again, this does more harm to the community and will make it a toxic environment.
    “Only very high karma users can downvote other users. This insures that downvotes are reserved only to established, proven, and active users.” – Again, another reason that this is an elitist tool meant to harm the community to make it walk on eggshells.
    “Karma should be magical, not numerical: Distinguishing it from Reddit’s number-based karma, virtual world karma should be immersive and part of the experience — symbolized by, for example, special colors on an avatar’s nametag, or even unique sound effects, when a high karma user appears on the scene. (VRChat has a color/shape-coded karma badge system for well-optimized avatars.)” – A better option would be not to have it at all. The ramifications for it to become exploited by elitists will only serve their purposes, rather than everyone as a whole.
    “Keep the karma algorithm secret and frequently tweaked: This is probably the most important function of a good karma system — to prevent it from being gamed, users should never precisely know how or when points are given or taken away. And like any other MMO game system, it should be quietly altered on a regular basis, based on user analytics.” – This is where you’re dead wrong. MMOs don’t use this type of system whatsoever. Yes, there’s eltists in MMOs when it comes to hardcore raiding that use addons such as RaiderIO from WoW to see if you’ve done Mythic Plus (usually +10 and higher) or Mythic Raiding; however, this would be exploited frequently by the elitists to ensure that only those they prefer get any type of leeway.
    The bottom line is this folks… any type of virtual world karma system can be exploited to the point where those who are high up on karma can literally silence those on the bottom end of the totem pole. It creates favoritism, elitism, toxic environments for all that have to deal with this, and ultimately a place that people want to leave from.
    Wagner, the points you’ve listed would in fact be the very points that become exploitable. There’s simply no reason for this type of system to be introduced into any virtual world.

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  3. Wagner James Au Avatar
    Wagner James Au

    Except the reason that Second Life without a karma/upvote system has roughly 500,000 regular users while ROBLOX with an upvote/karma system has 150 million monthly active users.

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  4. Better then Ezra Avatar
    Better then Ezra

    @Wagner James Au
    I almost thought the title of the article was how far left can we go? while the fact is Reddit is a now a far left leaning site now that only wants to push a one sided narrative while completely silencing alternative viewpoints with thousands unfairly silenced. so it’s ironic to use them as an example.
    ROBLOX and VRChat are not Second Life in a comparable way that you are pointing at.
    Karma is saying a social reputation system is a good thing when the country in real life that pushes it the most is communist china with its ongoing genocides in Tibet and thousands of Uighurs who die daily from forced organ donations but hey the NBA will never take a knee for that but that’s besides the point. people are dieing daily in some social points systems in RL so the idea its all good is not so good.
    Second Life does not need any more RL Drama when many are there to get away from real life including not wanting to be caught up in an easily gamed reputation system that will only hurt more then help.
    To put social pressure on people that can lead them to believe they matter less then others because of a score system outside of there control is wrong and borderline immoral.
    If only Clara was still around, I bet she would have something really funny to point out around this ‘karma’

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  5. Jumpman Lane Avatar
    Jumpman Lane

    Nah, you just don’t need a reputation system like reddit’s to up vote or down vote anyone in order to have a social reputation in a virtual world. One’s social reputation in the metaverse should be exactly how it is in real life: a result of one’s actions and deeds relative to one’s notoriety.
    people should be free to plink around in SL in total anonymity. Fame chasers should achieve fame as a result of their DEEDS. Similarly, so too should the infamous.
    Besides its too easy to weaponize a reddit-like Karma system. All I’d have to do is make a group (in self defense) and have my followers up vote or down vote my enemies with this new “I win” button!

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  6. epics sports apk Avatar
    epics sports apk

    Virtual world is something which is really the fastest growing field that i love the most like my ownself, Got a VR headset that i am using all the time to enjoy the virtual reality.

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  7. CronoCloud Creeggan Avatar
    CronoCloud Creeggan

    Hamlet you’re falling into the “If it is popular, SL should do the same, so it can be popular.” rabbit hole that you have fell into in the past. Remember when you pushed Facebook integration?
    This is the same sort of thing. For one, Roblox is a kids game, and cannot be compared to SL. For another SL DID have a karma system, which was gamed and useless.
    And finally Second Life is more like RL. You know how people in RL develop reputations? Well even though we don’t have a points based Rep system anymore, SL users still develop reputations.

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  8. Adeon Writer Avatar
    Adeon Writer

    This was the plot of a Black Mirror episode.

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  9. sirhc desantis Avatar
    sirhc desantis

    Ah, the “C” (-ommunity) word again =^^= And the replies to the 2012 version of this still ring true.
    However, the llRequestAgentData call does have at least a placeholder for the ancient crapola system. Amazing how much junk tech stuff accumulates.
    Still, a quick and dirty wearable version is easy enough to knock up. Might even have a go at one for s and gs and I promise not to include super secret cheat modes. Honest
    (protip – make ‘reddit’ all caps and in red so we can tell its a p taking article at one glance)

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  10. Luther Weymann Avatar
    Luther Weymann

    This brings politics into SecondLife. Here’s how that works for me. As a conservative, I and my fellow conservatives have been hounded off of Reddit. We have been abused without recourse, silenced by the mob, made to post in such a toxic liberal environment that our voices were silenced by the liberal mob. This is the reality of being a conservative in a Reddit world dominated by fascists who only want one voice speaking one way. The last message I got from Reddit before I never went back was to “get off of here we don’t need your type or want to hear what you have to say”. SecondLife with a Reddit system would be no different. If you need to virtue signal there are plenty of places to join the mob other than SL.

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  11. Alicia Avatar
    Alicia

    @Wagner, the huge difference between ROBLOX and SL are far and wide.
    ROBLOX, is a game that’s fun and entertaining game that boasts millions of active users from kids to young adults.
    SL, on the other hand, is an aging shell of its former self in every nuance and detail. An oligarch, if you want to call it that, in terms of it being part of the first generation of MMOCs (Massive Multiplayer Online Creator) that had its heyday back in 2006-2010. Fast forward to the present and what do you have now? A game that’s hiding its true graphics and age with hack after hack, despite its greatest asset being creator owned products that they can sell, etc. A game, that, in fact, has grown increasingly toxic over the years to the point where most people have begun to wait for that second generation MMOC to come around and take the reigns from SL. Again, your proposal would further that very toxicity in SL into unparalleled levels to the point where people would leave in droves.

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  12. Wagner James Au Avatar
    Wagner James Au

    That last claim doesn’t seem to have any evidence to back it up. In fact, when SL did have a (poorly implemented) rating system, it was abused and it did cause drama, yes — but SL sign-ups and activity continued to grow while it was in force.
    In fact, SL started to plateau and new users starting leaving a year or two after the rating system was removed.

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  13. Wagner James Au Avatar
    Wagner James Au

    “my fellow conservatives have been hounded off of Reddit”
    The r/Conservative subreddit currently has 434,000 subscribers. It’s actually much larger than the r/Liberal subreddit which has less than 100,000.

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  14. Clara Seller Avatar
    Clara Seller

    Hello Better then Ezra. I’m afraid I’m not laughing a lot these days, but thank you for thinking of me.
    I would really hate to see SL burdening it’s residents with score cards. It just seems so far away from the inclusiveness I loved from this place years ago. I understand the concerns from conservatives. I’m light years away from being a conservative, but I’ve also felt the scorn and aggression from SL right think militias. They would absolutely use this system to organize against and oppress that which refuses to conform to prescribed standards.
    I just miss the old days when rating your friends would seem absolutely disgraceful. You should spend your life seeking friends and being a friend and letting go of what you can’t give something of value to. It’s psychotic to believe that anyone in SL is there for your stamp of approval or disapproval. Honestly, the one’s with the big scores… I’d run like hell from.

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  15. Pulsar Avatar
    Pulsar

    A sort of karma system may work for the user content.
    In the SL forums there is a voting system already, with the total displayed on your profile. The username is the same. They could just add it to your SL profile et voilà! It doesn’t sound so terrible.
    If you look at the available reaction icons and in general, the voting system in the SL forums points more at the positive side, avoiding too much negativity, so voting isn’t so abused.
    On the other hand, downvoting isn’t necessarily bad, especially with really awful, misleading, devious, toxic content or behavior. You may think you could report it, then, but that doesn’t work always. E.g. the trick to provoke someone, but remaining within the rules, until the victim loses patience and gets punished instead.
    Also divisive topics may end up in downvoting feuds.
    Everything has pros and cons.
    Of course “vote brigading” is a problem anywhere from Reddit to Steam, but it can be detected and mitigated somewhat in the grand total (as well as “karma farming” etc). In fact, Reddit total karma doesn’t corresponds 1:1 to the sum of votes you got in all of your messages (the last bullet point is pretty right).
    Besides the forums, and even if it’s basic, with my.secondlife you can share your screenshots directly within SL and react with hearts (like Twitter) and comments, so you don’t have to make a new account and to give your data to a third-party website.
    However, the internal browser implementation isn’t that great: for a number of people it’s slow and, sometimes, it doesn’t load at all. Eventually SLers rather use Flickr, on which you can also upload photoshopped works, there are groups etc.
    So, instead of voting/downvoting an avatar profile, you should vote the content. It is already happening anyway, and without disasters, but it could be better made and better integrated in the SL viewer.

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  16. No, No, and No Avatar
    No, No, and No

    “In the SL forums there is a voting system already, with the total displayed on your profile. The username is the same. They could just add it to your SL profile et voilà! It doesn’t sound so terrible.”
    Weeps uncontrollably.
    I just think of the dreaded self-appointed priestess of the SL forum somehow getting her finger inserted in the don’t touch me there places of our inworld lives.
    People like her are not beloved. This kind of thing feeds that mentality.

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  17. irihapeti Avatar
    irihapeti

    if we could disable showing/giving reputation points on our inworld profile then it would be ok
    this is whats missing from the forums. The ability for us to turn reputation points off should we choose. What should happen when we disable reputations then there are no reputation buttons to press at the bottom of our posts

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